Shit did I miss the bandwagon?

Submitted by alderneyvamp on Mon, 2009-10-05 15:21.

Or can I still jump on it. There have been alot of new systems and alot of discussion on new systems recently (if I've not commneted it's because SheikhJahbooty gets there first with basically every point under the sun* so I would feel me sitting there going, "I agree with that man" isn't particularily worth it.) and I've had alot of fun reading it. It's an interesting trend, the removal or lessening of dice in games in some systems it's great (new Shadowrun vs older shadowrun editions streamline things alot helping the fast paced feel of the game) and in others it speeds things up but makes you feel like you've lost something because of it (nWoD I feel committed the most heinous of crimes by removing the damage roll. I'm sorry a meat cleaver is unwieldy and should be difficult to hit with but damn it should hurt when it hits, now you just sort of get a muddled "this is sort of how effective this weapon is" I agree that perhaps there shouldn't be soak rolls, just armour taking away some of the blow, because even the toughest guy on earth shouldn't be able to take 3 or 4 more knifings to the gut than the rest of us.) SO I really feel a balance needs to be struck here. I'm not against diceless systems in anyway shape of form, so long as the mechanics support a interesting and varied amount of actions.

Now there are systems like this I'm sure (Panty Explosion to name one) but I believe roleplaying could be more collaborative. I know they are amount working toghether with your group and you do, through joint effort create a series of event developing into a story. But when it comes down to the action, everyone slips into their individual. The game is filled with 'I do this' and 'This happens to you.' An interesting idea would be that your characters capabilities don't allow you so much to play your own roll, but effect the overall outcome of a scene. Depending on your skills and attributes you can bid to be the storyteller for a scene, if you bid the most you start describing the action that goes on. The players then left behind can use their points to tweak the events of the scene. In combat this could go something like this:

John has bid for control of this combat scene that is involving a car chase. He bid his attributes of 'Driver,' 'Gunman' and 'Dextrous' to win the ST rights. The other players get to use their actions to tweak the results. The Storyteller Anna has decided what attribute the enemies have and notes when they could appropriately tweak.

Anna (ST): Okay the chase moves out of the alley and into the street, they are still following you with one caddilac and a motorcycle, the caddy has got three guys, one driver and two passengers with hand guns. John take her away.

John: The cars pull onto a busy street, the chances for danger increasing as they zip through the traffic. Richard (his character) struggles to keep control of his vehicle as the gangers fire at him from behind. Rachel shoots back but narrowly misses the driver in the lead gangers cadillac.

Trudy (Rachels player): Spend my crack shot to tweak that, I want to hit one of the enemy.

John: The bullet screams past his head, driving it's way messily into the skull of the backseat gunman before he managed to get his shot of at the back wheel of the hero's jeep. The driver is shocked by the sound and panics for a moment, losing control of the wheel.

Anna (ST): Spend his 'Cool under fire' attribute to keep control.

John: It's only momentary, he pulls his vehicle strait just before it collides with a truck. One of the oppositions pulls up the side in a motorcycle, close enough for the protagonists to see his eyes.

James (playing Samuel: Spend my 'Reach attribute to attack him.

Anna (ST): That's not enough, you'll need a second bid.

James: Alright I'll also spend my 'Daredevil' attribute.

Anna: That's good enough for me, John make it good.

John: Samuel reaches out and grabs the back of the motorcyclists bike, it swings towards the car but not before Sam has gotten both feet onto the door frame, he leaps out, causing the motorcyclist to fall off, bike skiding across the ground under Sams feet as he rides it like a surf board. The motorcyclist's head is crushed under the wheels of the pursuing cadillac, he shoulda worn a helmet kids.

Anna: Calamity occurs.

John: The same cadillac that plows into sam, sending him flying into the back seat with a broken...

James: Spend my 'Tough' attribute.

John:... ego. But not before Richard leans out and fires at the leader of the Redskull gang, making his face a replica of their gang motiff.

Trudy: Rachels not done anything for awhile, I want to use my Compassion attribute to some effect.

John. Hmm okay I got. Rachel screams out that they can't just leave Sam behind. The cadillac has listed to one side of the road, it breaks for the barrier and rolls down the hill. Richard pulls over. 'We will have to do this on foot.'

Anna: Okay John you attributes no longer apply, new scene. In fact new chapter. The wreckage is there but the bodies are gone before you get there (James I'll take you aside in a minute.) Anyone want to bid or shall I carry on?

Trudy: Damn I used all my surival traits two scenes ago.

Anna: That's okay its a new chapter, your traits have been restocked.

Obviously that would require a lot of work. Perhaps have it the other way round in which the ST is mostly in control but the players can spend tweaks on everything (rather than those just effecting their character) but I like the idea of a ST setting a scene and one player being given fairly free license. The ST keeps the traits of the NPCs ready to influence events as well as some drama traits (like Calamity.) To help her shape the story. Maybe the could be a way to overbid the main player mid scene by spending more appropriate traits (so you spend alot to gain control of the scene rather then one every now and then to influence it.)

This would require a fairly advanced group, one who recognizes that the story is more important than individual glory, that the players shouldn't always win even if they are controlling the scene and a storyteller able to be adaptable in their story. Well thats my two cents of a game mechanic that may or may not be further developed.

*Not a bad thing, your wonderfully helpful to read.

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With some polish, this could be interesting.

Submitted by Ar Kayon on Tue, 2009-10-06 02:09.

It would certainly get rid of dice and standard attributes. However, I can see that you will need a very large list of attributes. Also, perhaps particularly effective usage - the right skill at the right time - could replenish attribute points.

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Just popped into my head.

Submitted by alderneyvamp on Tue, 2009-10-06 04:43.

It would need a very large amount of polish, and a ridicuosly huge list of attributes, seeing as they would cover not only physical, social and mental capabilities but also personality traits and perhaps even above normal equipment (standard equipment wouldn't net you any tweaks because it merely allows the character to do the thing in the first place.) I just had an idea where your character would also have some negative traits that you could purposefully tweak in order to recieve some of your positive attribute back.

That is a worry, I did say that the replenish every chapter in the above example, but I don't feel that's enough, but you don't have a reason not to spend if you get them every scene, so there definately has to be a mechanic to regain your traits some how, but a minor penalty to you.
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Don't steal... The Government hates competition.

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Maybe like Willpower

Submitted by SheikhJahbooty on Tue, 2009-10-06 07:59.

There's a bunch of games, but the first one that pops into mind is World of Darkness, that have refresh conditions.

Maybe you could have that, allow characters to specify refresh conditions. You could even specify different amounts of refresh. You need a drink and you get a drink, one trait refreshes. You go out on a date, several traits refresh. You get your artwork featured in a show, all traits refresh.

The number of traits didn't seem to me that it had to be daunting. Am I the only one that remembers Warhammer Fantasy Role Play? Huge list of skills there, and they didn't have skill levels; you just had them or you didn't. (I call them binary skills.) And in the original version of Traveller, skills were essentially binary (You could raise them to second, third or higher level, but it was seldom particularly useful.)

But Alderney's idea here could have traits that have levels, much the same way that Aspects do in Fate 2. It would work either way.

For me, if I were to polish this idea into an actual system, I would want to somehow make it clear what would be good tactics and bad tactics, like maybe have threats to the PCs and the things or people they care about be represented by cards. On the card (even if it's just a half index card) could be the name of the threat and a trait or two it possesses.

Why, you may ask?

Because once you've blown a bunch of your traits winning narrative rights, the absolutely strongest and best course of action, tactically is for you to tell a story that asks the other players to use their traits. Your friend who's a tough daredevil... give him a chance to bring that up. Of course, when he wins narration, he'll do the same, try to tell the story so that your character will get a refresh or be able to use your traits to win the day.

It actually has the potential to be the RPG system that functions more like improvisational theater than anything else I've ever seen in a RPG.

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Idea from LARP.

Submitted by alderneyvamp on Tue, 2009-10-06 11:52.

The main premise came from WoD larp if I'm honest in which you had list of traits which you could bid to force a retest (Rock paper siccors) that you either failed or someone won against you.

I think this could go a similair vein as the WoD titles, that is you have a core book and system that gives you the ability to make only mortals. That is what I would focus on first. Then afterwards give extra systems with more traits and more fun ways to use traits (ooh ooh, perhaps in a mage style game the characters power comes from bargaining with demons or other wibbly things, the player has to spend their positive personality traits in order to use their magic as they 'give a little of themselves' to the things beyond our world.)

Also I forgot to pick up Ar's idea about specific usage. A lot of traits would be similair to each other (Crack Shot and Gun Slinger for example, Daredevil and Reckless* as another.) So in the description they would get particular bonuses to certain tweaks. Crack shot might be better for when you have a few moments to focus your aim whilst Gunslinger allows you to jump from cover to cover whilst firing back. Crackshot is more likely to result in a single kill, but Gunslinger might wound several enemies.

The idea of having multiple levels is fanatastic. I would think that, well obviously, it would lend you extra usages of that skill as a tweak, but rather than going 1,2,3 it might go 1,3 and 5 so that a player would actually have to choose between 2 or 3 similair traits (for added versatility) or one trait ranked up (for reliability.) To stop this being too overpowering perhaps you can only spend a trait once on bidding for a scene, regardless of it's level and then it's gone until it refreshes.

Modelling refreshes on willpower is an interesting idea. This will probably increase the attitude of spending some to gain some. I would probably have it that a player has to use a tweak in order to regain traits from a significant action, otherwise players could just describe themselves doing things and maintaining really high trait levels.

I'm going to have a big hard think about this tonight. Thanks for all the ideas, I'm sure I'm going to have you guys shouting out trait ideas in a week or so.

*Although Reckless would probably be Daredevils negative twin, your character does something wildly dangerous but unlike with Daredevil he doesn't get away with it.
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Don't steal... The Government hates competition.

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XP

Submitted by oversoul on Wed, 2009-10-21 03:02.

I like the in world method of gaining back traits, drink of water get back a trait. Another option coulds be the liberal distribution of XP during the narrative by the ST. She just calls out, "45XP for John!" if she likes what she hears. Then the players could use that to buy back specific traits when they want too. Or perhaps hold on to them to buy new traits later.

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