Sample Core Mechanics
Here I will write up some mechanics that could be used for this game.
Real 3D
You have a character value from 1 to 20.
You have a difficulty (or another character value) from 1 to 20.
You roll three 6-sided dice.
If the sum of the 3 dice are equal or lower than your character value, you handle it safely. Wich means, you don't loose the control.
If the sum of the 3 dice are higher than your character value, you mess up and loose control. This will have consequences depending on the gap between the roll and your character value.
Add the highest die to your character value. If the highest die is 6, you can add the second highest, too. If you rolled two 6s, you can add all the three dice to your character value.
If the sum is higher than the difficulty, that's a success, you managed to take the obstacle. The wider the gap between the sum and the difficulty, the better the success is.
If the sum is equal or lower than the difficulty, you didn't succeed. The bigger the gap between the sum and the difficulty, the bigger the failure becomes.
This core mechanic intends to simulate the two faces of skilledness.
On one hand, you can use a skill to safely control what you do. (For example drive/fly a vehicle without crashing it.) This incorporates some very easy difficulties, too. (Like passing through an easy obstacle course.)
On the other hand you get sometimes lucky and even you yourself are staggered how have you been able to manage the task and you will be sure that it won't happen again. (Like passing through an obstacle course you thought impossible.)
Note, that you can pass the obstacle AND crash the vehicle. If you roll too high, you went too far. You made too big circle to evade an obstacle and lost the optimal track by doing so.
Conscious decisions can be made by adding or substracting modifiers before the roll is made. If you are a daredevil, you add to it, if you are a safe softy, you substract from it. Both can prove as futile after the roll. There are only two objective values that you know how they behave: your skill value and the difficulty.
If 2 characters are rolling against each other, the accomplishment is how big success they get. If either of them rolls above his/her character value, (s)he made a mistake that can be exploited.
Idea for close combat (not a realistic one, only to try the mechanic): The two players decide secretley how aggressively their characters will fight (a whole number). The two characters roll simultaneously. The aggressivity modifies the value of the highest die rolled. (More dice are only added up if rolled a natural 6.) The damage made by your character is the gap between your sum (your value + highest di(c)e according to the rules) and the character value of your opponent. Damage made by your character is only delivered if your opponent rolled (the 3d6) above his/her character value.
Possible problems:
This mechanic has the problem that it uses a "roll below skill value" with dice having a bell curve. The bell curve is good for making performance mostly mean, but rolling under skill value only means that the bell curve rescales the array of possible values. The same result could be achieved by using 1d20 and the buying of higher values would be exponential expensive.
Luckily there is this little rule about the possibility for the player to modify the result of the roll. This rule would have no meaning if the result of the rolling would give an even result: but by having the bell curve the player can estimate the result of the roll and can realistically decide what modifier (s)he really needs.
Real examples for Real 3D
Running. The higher difficulty you achieve (having an open ended roll like in Shadowrun) the quicker you run. If you roll above your "run" value, you become such exhausted that you can't do anything right after. The exhaustedness is defined by the gap between your roll and your "run" value.
I still haven't decided whether sprintin and long distance running should be separated or is the latter just sprinting with a high negative modifier. You always roll under, but you won't get very quick. I would rather use the latter, because it would be better for a game intended to be realistic to have more generic rules. For sprinting and for long distance running the physics and the biology is the same. Only the tactic changes wich is exactly the modifier for.
Physical Danger. People act differently when they are in physical danger. It can be practiced and learned to physically defend yourself, wich means it is a skill. Let's call it physical awareness. If you are running from a hitman, you will run quite differently as when running at the olympics. If physical danger is imminent, this skill has to be used. It is mostly used together with another physical skill. By succeeding in this skill you can evade or lessen physical harm even if you didn't manage it by using your other skill.
Self Inflicted Difficulty
This is just a basic idea wich can be used in any RPG that has some difficulty value. There are situations where the players can define the difficulty directly. For example take Han Solo flying through the asteroids to shake off TIEs. He is raising the difficulty of flying to give the Imperial pilots a hard job, because they have to struggle against the same difficulty.
The GM determines based upon the terrain what is the range of difficulties that can be chosen (how deep you go into the asteroid field) and the same difficulty is applied to the chasers, too. This can work in D20, in Shadowrun, anywhere if there is something like a difficulty or target value.
Note: It doesn't work every time a contested check would work, it only works when there are two enemies: the difficulty of the task and the opponent with the same problems as yourself.
Using Skills Together
This can be tried to in any RPG that uses skill or attribute checks. If the act needs more than one value, even then roll just once and compare it to more values, as you would've rolled for each and every check the same result. This means that you can't excel in a lesser skill if you didn't in a better one. You can't add up the results (you can't add nor if checking against a difficulty, nor the gap of success), but you can differentiate more discrete outcomes.
In this case for example you can use the skill "run" and the skill "physical awareness" together if you are running from someone chasing you, if you think that the pursuer wants to harm you.
First you make up a modifier for the roll for the running and for the physical awareness seperately. You roll once with the three dice and compare them to the skill value "run" as stated above in the example. Then you compare the result of the same roll to your "physical awareness" value. The gap you rolled under the skill is added to the success of the running. If the pursuer caught you, you can decrease the probability of a hit and the damage caused by the success of physical awareness. If you rolled above your physical awareness, you can only decrease the damage inflicted, but not the probability of a hit.
If you run and someone is attacking you it's a totally different issue. You don't run because of fleeing from physical harm, you have to roll seperately for the two seperate skills.
Base Values
Now, listen to this. I was thinking about this over and over and still don't know how bad impact would this have on the mechanic. But I think it would make it more fun, would implement the attributes and I think it can even be useful for some balance problems of the mechanic Real 3D. (If you have a skill value of 5, it won't help that the difficulty is 5, too. You simply can't roll under 5, the probability is very small.)
The skill values range from around 1 through 20. (These are the normal values with 3-18 the meaningful ones.) Let's have basic attributes ranging from 1 through 6. Each and every skill has 1 to 3 basic attributes attached to it with an importance value. The importance values of the basic attributes attached to the same skill add up 3.
Example:
- Running (strength 1D, dexterity 2D)
- Weight Lifting (strength 3D)
I wrote a letter D after the importance value to make it more intuitive, because AFTER you rolled the dice you assign all the three dice to the basic attributes attached to the skill. You assign as many dice to the attribute as the importance.
Example:
- When running you roll the dice and they come up: 3,4,4. You decide to assign a 4 to strength and a 3 and a 4 to dexterity.
Then you compare the result to the attribute wich you assigned to and you use the difference as a modifier. If you rolled under the attribute it will make easier to roll under the skill value and it will raise the success. If you rolled above the attribute it will make harder to roll under the skill value and it will lessen the success.
Example:
- Your run skill has the value of 10.
- Your strenth is 4, your dexterity is 5.
- You assign a 4 to strength and a 3 and a 4 to dexterity.
- You get a -3 modifier when comparing the roll (11) to the skill (10) wich means it saved you from tripping.
- You get a +3 modifier for calculating the success, wich means it will be 10 (skill) + 4 (highest value) + 3 (attribute modifier) = 17 instead of 14.
Looking into it:
I decided to assign the dice to attributes after rolling, because it would else just escalate the result: if you roll low, it will be lower, if you roll high, it will be higher. But in this case you can optimize wich can be imagined as the insticts working.
I don't know if it is correct to use such an abstract method (assigning AFTER) in a game intended to be realistic. It would only be correct if each and every mechanic would come from the need of realism. This time the cause was not only realism, the only realism in this mechanic is that it implements attributes, but there are other priorities here, too, wich seem much more important: it's elegant (you don't have to roll seperate dice for attributes, and it's the third use for the same result) and it's easy (you don't have to add much, you mostly have to compare).
Now I'm really curious what you think about this one.
An important note: When generating the character and advencing it, the value of basic attributes are based on the skill advancement and not vice versa! The character gets strong because of weight liftin and not chooses weight liftin because he had a strength of 18 already as a teenager. Yes, there is "build" and "talent", but those values are something else and not the brute, unmodified strength wich tells you only how big you lift.
Specific Use of Base Values
If we accept that the base values like strength, eye-hand-coordination, etc. have specific purposes, than the complexity of Real 3D with Base Values can be explained.
You still use the Real 3D rule and you still tie dice to base values, but not only for a modifier, but to have specific uses.
For example you are fighting wich uses eye-hand-coordination for hit, strength to do damage, balance to evade hitting. You roll 3 dice and you compare it to your "skill" value. You get an avarage rating how this turn will look like for you.
Then if you want to have higher damage then indicated by the result, you tie a high die to your strength.
Strong bones for a healty rpg
It took more than a once over to get it straight, but it seems like an interesting mechanic.
3d6 vs skill, roll under, to test execution.
Highest die (dice)+ skill vs difficulty for degree of achievement.
4 outcomes:
- Roll under skill, over difficulty:
- Pass the test, in a safe manner
- Roll under skill, under difficulty:
- Fail task, but avoid injury in doing so
- Roll over skill, over difficulty:
- Succeed in a potentially dangerous manner
- Roll over skill, under difficulty:
- Screw up in a very embarrassing and dangerous way
3d6 is a pretty strong bell curve, but the idea that you can voluntarily hedge you bet is nice.
I haven't played anything with the "One Roll System" but from what I gather in rpg.net reviews, you have come to a similar concept. And judging from the rampant praise of the concept on that site, I'd also say its a good one.
The fact that you can have different mitigated successes is very becoming of the genre.
We could probably start an argument over how realistic cyberpunk should portray the world. (Gibson's initial model for the net is based on 20 year old electronic BBS.) However, I'd prefer to just see ho this plays out for now. To each their own dystopia.
There is a fine line between hobby and obsession. I seem to have lost sight of it some time ago.
What a neat mechanic!
Often in game design, when someone mentions "realistic", it is often compared with "complex". But the beauty of your mechanic is that it allows for a wide diversity of applications (skill, attribute and combat checks) as well as a wide diversity of outcomes. This is all contained in a single roll.
The only hitch I could potentially see coming is the effect of drastically failing rules wise. How do you present guidelines for handling drastic failures? You could lay it all out in as many examples as you could imagine, but this would create a lot of work for you. How can you provide GM's and players with a level, so to speak, that they can compare to all of their successes and failures? Sorry if I sound like I am being difficult, but I just wanted to test your thoughts on how you imagine the game - it helps when you go to type it :)
Thanks
Aardvark,
I would correct a bit your definitions. When I was making up these four results, I was always thinking about me flying the X-wing in the Star Wars trench PC game X-wing. (Note: It's not the cinematically of the movie, it's the realism of me and my joystick.)
- when the difficulty is low, I actually has to concentrate to use my experiences, to use the sure knowledge (I need to roll under my skill value wich will give at least a minimal result above my skill value)
- when the difficult gets higher, I have to leave the methods I learned, flip out and crank the joystick as there would be no tomorrow with two possible dangers: I crash the plane against the next obstacle (a roll too low) I crash the plane against the trenchwall (a roll too high) both means death
I can imagine by overcoming a dangerous situation when driving a car in a chase by rolling too high, but then sliding off the road wich causes even more trouble.
Although I read about the One-Roll Engine, but the real modell is Shadowrun. It always bugged me what an exciting idea was to actually use skills against your own weapon. The target number and the needed numbers of successes made a really great two layered difficulty system. Although I think it's too cinematic.
About cyberpunk being realistic or not: I was thinking about using Gibson as a base and revamping it by the possibilities and "normalities" of GitS. I think it's a rather safe assumption that some things won't change at all (the coffe machine is just a coffe machine), and that the things that are changing, well there are lot of sources to revamp Gibson's ideas.
With realism what I really want to smell the gunpowder and feel the blood dripping. And if I throw in some fantastic technology, it will become even more frightening. (Yes, the future of cyberpunk is frightening.)
Relentless,
It's really only the core mechanic and the outcomes themselves are depending on the activity (actual skills) used. Sometimes it's injury, sometimes is death, sometimes it's nothing. The dynamic is the same, but the system of reference is described case by case wich, yeah, means many examples and tables. But this is what realism looks like.
Even different fighting styles should be different: the players won't bother to pick oneuntil it has no mechanical meaning. And what I think is, that they are right about this.
What I fear is that I rally liked this little mechanic and I'm afraid to fail seeing a better one when it arises.
And something else:
I didn't know if you noticed it, but the higher the skill value gets, the higher die results are possible to added to it. It's an upward spiral. If you have a value of 7, the highest result you can add will be 5! If you have a value of 10, you can hope to get maximally a roll of 9 (6+3).
Don't stop!!!
Your comment about failing made my heart skip. This is a great idea! You should definately follow up on it - you have my interest. Once you finish this, it could be the core of many of your projects to come. So it would be worth your while. Thanks!
Too many mods?
There is no fault in your innovation, nor in the scope of what you wish to portray in this system. However, I think it is lacking elegance - which I generally associate with playability.
Any given roll has quite a few operations, which slows down resolution.
- Decide on player imposed difficulty increase
- Conscious modifiers
- Assign to attributes & add/subtract mods of difference
- Check vs skill
- Find degree of overshoot.
The fact that any single change modifies two elements at once doesn't really help.
It might be easier to set a static difficulty and degree of success system, with an endurance stat for each area of ability. Roll against your skill to test for success. Then compare the degree of success/failure to your attribute to see if you overexerted.
As one possible amendment, you could go for a medium between a d20 and 3d6 and use 2d10.
There is a fine line between hobby and obsession. I seem to have lost sight of it some time ago.
You're right
You're right and it is not at all realistic. Wich means it's crap. But I would like to stick to 3 dice, because 2 dice has a rather square profile (I mean the distribution graph is too pointy).
Let's see if I can make up some other possibilities.
Too hard on yourself
I didn't say it was unrealistic. Nor crap. Its a good idea, just a bit hard to execute.
No other game I can think of has a measure of overextending yourself. Yet I can recall so many occasions in books, manga, and movies where someone admonishes the young hero "You're trying too hard and leaving yourself open".
Most things that attempt to measure human abilities with numbers default to being a poor measure. Sure, someone might type 30 words per minute - but with what type of keyboard (qwerty/dvorak, full size vs notebook)and under what conditions (quiet office/well rested). Army physical training is as much about shared hardship to forge a team as actual exercises.
When the IQ test was first introduced in America, almost none of the citizens could complete it. Mostly because it was written in French, and detailed elements of pastoral European lifestyle that didn't necessarily have relevance in America. It was Stanford University (hence the proper name is the Stanford-Binette Test)
While I won't say any attempt at realism is doomed, but you generally need to resign yourself to a level of reality found in your genre/game - not actual life. Hence why I questioned the realism of cyberpunk. Looking at the some of the Sprawl Trilogy:
- Neuromancer
-
- Case is world class hacker who eventually gains the assistance of the recorded brain of another legendary console cowboy.
- Molly is a cybernetically enhanced assassin.
- Armitage was ex-special forces.
- Their opponents are rich and savvy enough to own a space station and cheat the means of legally dead through cryogenics
- Count Zero
-
- Marly has a super rich patron who can send her across the world searching for a shadow box.
- Turner is a trained mercenary.
- Angela has experimental brain augmentations
There are certinly more average people out there, but we're not looking for the game "Russian Novel: the Quiet Desperation". Cyberpunk tends to be very much about getting caught in events beyond your control, and it takes certian smart/skilled/lucky people to roll with the punches. I've seen it rather aptly called "Film Noir with computers".
Now one approach you might try is to have Base attributes, trainable abilities, and skills. BAs assume that everyone can do some things, ie run. TAs are those that are built on natural talent - marathon running takes months of preparation for example. Skills are more of a you have or you don't prospect.
Another way to look at realism, is to presume a level playing field, but differing amounts of time. A person with 110 IQ and one with 90 can both figure out the same problems, its just the higher scored ones will get them quicker. Unless legally blind, anyone will see the truck, its just a matter of how many meters down the highway/how soon after the turn.
There is a fine line between hobby and obsession. I seem to have lost sight of it some time ago.
More to come
You helped me to make some advancements, thanks.

You are on to something
I really like this core mechanic is cool and I really want to see it applied in a finished game. I really like the multiple applications of what is basically the same type of roll. I think that that what you have here will eventually add realism to your cyberpunk game's mechanics and probably many other games as well. By the way I think its great that you are working on a cyberpunk game. Cyberpunk a great genre when it is done right and still entertaining even if its not. I think that makes it good gaming material.
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